Kelly Kovack [00:00:00]: This episode is presented by Happy Farm Botanicals. Happy Farm Botanicals is a leader in custom solutions for prestige brands specializing in non-toxic and natural formulations. Just a quick note on this episode. It was recorded prior to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. While there may be some references which may have a different context now, we believe you’ll find the conversations remains highly relevant and useful, and so we’re presenting it in its entirety. We hope you’re healthy and safe.
David Pirrotta [00:00:43]: Hi, my name is David Pirrotta. I’m the Founder and CEO of David Pirrotta Brands. I’m also the founder of Materiae.com. To me, it’s a matter of integrity.
Kelly Kovack [00:00:56]: While the death knell of the retail apocalypse has been ringing for years, and the casualties have been significant, raising out of the ashes is a new world of vibrant retail. I’m Kelly Kovack, founder of Beauty Matter. Retailers that have failed to innovate are simply not going to survive. Others will emerge reinvented, delivering better stores and more experiences. A confluence of factors, economic, technology, consumer behavior, and niche innovations have removed any concept of structure when it comes to distribution. The beauty landscape has completely changed. The lines between online and offline have not blurred, they’ve blended. Consumers are channel agnostic, and the very strict rules that once governed the distribution of beauty brands have been told re-written. Known for his passion for beauty, contagious enthusiasm, and endless energy, David Pirrotta, CEO of David Perrotta Brands and Materiae, is the secret weapon for indie beauty brands carving out their place in the hyper-competitive category of beauty.
So, David, thanks for joining us on It’s A Matter Of. You know, we’ve known each other a long time. I think we actually met at Barney’s on the sales floor about 20 years ago.
David Pirrotta [00:02:32]: Yes, wow.
Kelly Kovack [00:02:33]: So, you know, what was…for me, you’re kind of the…you know, if I had to say sort of like the quintessential sales person. When I see you on sort of a sales floor or doing a training or talking about a brand or sort of having a conversation with a consumer, it’s such a pleasure to watch because it’s almost like you’re putting on a show, and you have such passion and love for what you do. Can you give us kind of like just a little bit of history on sort of how you found your way, not only into beauty, but into brands and sort of ultimately setting up your own business?
David Pirrotta [00:03:16]: Wow. It started right out of college. Actually, when I was in school, in university, I was working in shops that sold a lot of beauty brands, and I didn’t realize it at the time, but I loved lotions and potions and candles and fragrances, but again, what really happened was when I moved to New York and I went to school for theater and also for accounting.
Kelly Kovack [00:03:36]: Well, that’s not surprising.
David Pirrotta [00:03:38]: So, I had both the numbers side and also the theatrical side, and I started working in an accounting department, and one day I just couldn’t handle it anymore. Everybody had graduated from Rutgers and they were all very unhappy and very unpleasant, and you could tell that they were actually just going through the motions to collect a paycheck, and they weren’t loving what they did for a living. So, I left for lunch and went to a Puerto Rican restaurant in Hell’s Kitchen and had two glasses of Chardonnay and Arroz con Pollo, and I read an article in Vanity Fair about this brand called Natura Bisse and at the time, I was smoking a lot, because I was in my 20s and I was looking for an oxygen cream which would like really help with bringing back oxygen to the surface of my skin from the deplenishment of me having too much fun in New York City and smoking. And so, I ended up walking into Bergdorf Goodman, and I went over, I went downstairs, and the new department had just opened downstairs, and I went to the Natura Bisse counter and there was this older woman, her name was Antoinette Rigerio, and she was in her early 70s, and she was a true New Yorker with a Queens’ Accent, and she said, “Sweetheart, what can I help you with?” and I said, “I’m looking for this oxygen cream,” and she looks at me and goes, “You have beautiful skin,” she goes, “You ever work in retail?” and I was like, “I did, in college and in high school,” and she’s like, “Are you looking for a job?” I was like, “As a matter of fact, I think I just quit my job and never went back after my lunch break, so I could use a new job,” and so I started the next day on the floor at Bergdorf Goodman, which how many people can just walk into Bergdorf Goodman and get a job there? And by two weeks in, I was one of the top sales people on the floor selling a ton of Natura Bisse, and then later on all the brands starting poaching me, specifically one called Sundari, and tt was Christy Turlington’s brand, and you know, what gay boy doesn’t want to work with a supermodel?
Kelly Kovack [00:05:38]: It’s really interesting, you know, she really tried, with that brand, to modernize Ayurveda, and talk about being too soon, because if she had launched that brand today, it would be a huge success.
David Pirrotta [00:05:50]: Huge, huge. It was like way before its time, and I was very lucky to fall into it, because I learned a lot of my foundation for my career, because I learned early on that I wasn’t really into the heritage brands; I was really much into the indie brands, and meeting Christy and her partners and learning about Ayurvedic principles, and learning about your dosha and your pitta and your kapha and all of that kind of fun stuff, and also learning how oils work on your skin. At the time, no one wanted to put an oil on their face. So, it did prepare me for when, fast-forward ten years later when I met Linda Rodin, and she was launching a face oil line, I knew how to sell it.
Kelly Kovack [00:06:27]: So, can we – before we fast-forward to Linda, because I think that’s sort of a really interesting…I think almost case study in you, if I can say that. So, you know, I think sales people, or sales roles, are kind of the hardest roles to fill, because they’re really, you know, kind of the engine, especially for indie beauty brands, to keep the lights on, right? So, I know you were kind of like a hot commodity. What made you go from that sort of VP of sales role and walk away from the security of a paycheck? I mean, indie beauty brands are only so secure, but to sort of moving from New York to LA and opening up David Pirrotta Brands, and what’s that business model?
David Pirrotta [00:07:15]: Wow. Yeah. I was fortunate, after leaving Barney’s, I did work with a showroom when I was a sales director there, and the owner was the king, at the time, of like indie brands, and so I don’t think anybody remembers – we do, but I don’t think anybody remembers who he is nowadays, but he was the frontrunner at the time. There wasn’t – there was a handful of indie brands, and he had them all, and so…
Kelly Kovack [00:07:37]: He was sort of…Jeffrey Scott, and he was sort of like a one-stop-shop for retailers.
David Pirrotta [00:07:42]: Totally, for retailers. And so, I kind of like learned from that. I worked with him for a year and then eventually became a VP of a few brands, and then moved to LA. When I moved to LA, I was offered a few different in-house jobs, and then I realized that my passion, again, going back to living your best life and doing what really drives you and loving what you do, because that’s really what brings success in life, is enjoying what you do for a living, I met this woman named Melanie Mayron, and she was, within a week or two of living in Los Angeles, I met her tenant. She had a guest house she was renting out to a New Yorker who met me at the DVM and I caused a scene.
Kelly Kovack [00:08:25]: Because you’re a New Yorker in LA.
David Pirrotta [00:08:27]: Totally, and I had security come over to me, and she was like, “Are you from New York?” and I was like, “Yes,” and she was like, “What do you do?” the last five minutes of our conversation, I told her I had worked for the company called Red Flower, she’s like, “I love Red Flower,” and I told her I had worked for The Art of Shaving and all of these other brands, and so she was like, “Oh my god, my land lady/friend has this baby line and she needs your help. I don’t know what I’m doing, I’m helping her on the side,” so I met her, and I realized my true passion and my calling in life was to help people launch their brands.
Kelly Kovack [00:08:59]: But, you also come from sort of an entrepreneurial family too, so it wasn’t such a stretch.
David Pirrotta [00:09:05]: No. It’s like a lineage of all entrepreneurs like coming from like my parents and my grandparents, they all had their own businesses.
Kelly Kovack [00:09:13]: So, maybe it was in the card, it was just a matter of presenting the when.
David Pirrotta [00:09:18]: The when. You know, I think the when happened when I got to Los Angeles, and at that time, not like today, because there’s tons of beautiful brands coming out of Los Angeles, but when I moved there, there was nothing great coming out of Los Angeles. I literally slept in a fetal position for a year and a half and rocked myself to sleep and cried, I had little tears coming down my cheek, wondering when I would go back to New York, and luckily, after meeting Melanie Mayron, you called me about a project and I came back to New York six months after moving to LA, and I met Linda Rodin right after that, and so I started signing really great brands, and then I realized I had a company. It just started organically, I started with $300, I had to incorporate. Listen, at the time, it started with like a banking account with like $300, not even a credit card, and I ran with it, just selling products. Loading my trunk with samples and hitting the road and hitting every store, old school style, going into accounts and opening them, and as the cash came in, I’d get on a plane to another market and open that market up. So, it just began organically, and that was eleven years again.
Kelly Kovack [00:10:22]: But, I would say that like, you probably didn’t do a formalized business plan, but you knew the business plan in your head once you started rolling, right?
David Pirrotta [00:10:31]: Yeah. It just started happening, and I was just like, “Oh, it’s just going to be a show room, brand management kind of model, and eventually, when there’s enough cash flow, I’ll create the distribution model where I would import brands, and then eventually have a model where I’d have my own 3PL and eventually my own .com and eventually, my own stores.”
Kelly Kovack [00:10:49]: And so, you’re – I would say that it seems like you’re 75% through, so, you set up the brand management, which you still do.
David Pirrotta [00:10:58]: Which I still do, which is still my biggest kind of growing business, because it’s where we launched Rodin and Odin and Ilia, which we still work with Ilia nine and a half years later. That was kind of the bread and butter of my business, and it still today is the bread and butter of my business, because it’s a commission-model business with a small retainer. And then, a few years after starting that, I was approached by an incredible haircare line that had a situation with their distributor, and so I literally jumped on a plane to Sweden and made a deal happen and came back to the U.S. and started the distribution side of the business, and that was seven years ago, and during that time, we launched under the distribution umbrella Grown Alchemist, Sachajuan, David Mallett, all of these amazing brands, and now we’ve launched two new brands from Australia, because you know, I have like an affinity for Australian brands, for Scandinavian brands, and then of course, the European brands. Yeah, so that model happened, and then after that, I was working with 3PLs, and you know, it’s such a big direct-to-consumer business now, and I am the guy that has friends order things from my warehouse and I Venmo them so they can show me what it looks like, so they know it’s not me that’s ordering it, so they get to keep the samples and test it out, and I was seeing all the packaging, even though I showed everyone how to pack everything perfectly and how I wanted it, was just arriving to the consumer in a terrible way, just like, you know, when I ordered things from Barney’s in the last few years, it was a terrible experience.
Kelly Kovack [00:12:39]: Well, we’re going to go back to Barney’s, because that’s a whole conversation.
David Pirrotta [00:12:44]: But, yeah, so that’s why we started the 3PL in July I signed a lease, and then in the fall, we got all our licenses from the city of Burbank, so we have our own 3PL, which is for our own brand management brands, pretty much we work as their 3PL, and then also for my distribution brands and any new brands that are looking for a smaller kind of warehousing structure.
Kelly Kovack [00:13:05]: A bit more hands-on.
David Pirrotta [00:13:06]: Hands-on, where they can walk in, see their inventory, our warehouse manager talks to the owner and lets him know what’s going on, what he sees low on, so it’s not only just…it’s very kind of…kind of very hands-on, but I think the future of our business is you have to know everything that’s happening. My issue with 3PLs is you never know exactly what your inventory is.
Kelly Kovack [00:13:27]: Right. You know, I think – so, what you’re essentially building is a vertical operation, sort of on the distribution, all the way from sort of the brand is built, so from distribution to retail and even direct-to-consumer with your latest venture.
David Pirrotta [00:13:44]: Exactly. And then for a passion project, I like, in the spring of last year, we launched our own beauty website, so that was more so a passion project for myself, because I’m always working now more so as a CEO versus as a creative, so the Materiae website was launched because it was going to be my hobby of the years of me being on the floor at Barney’s and finding new brands that you can’t find everywhere, we’re going to test it and have the consumers test it, and we also have a lot of editorial on it as well.
Kelly Kovack [00:14:16]: No, it’s beautiful. Congratulations.
David Pirrotta [00:14:19]: Yeah, it’s so exciting, because we haven’t even pumped in that much money into it, and it just organically has grown like 800%.
Kelly Kovack [00:14:25]: I think organically is sort of the best way to build. So, let’s talk about, you know, you have this very solid business and you definitely know kind of what you’re doing, but we’ve been hearing about sort of the retail apocalypse, which I’m sort of like, enough with the click bait, and we hear all of these, like the death knell of retail, and I think yeah, online is going to grow, and maybe it’s just me being nostalgic, but I really think that you know, the retailers that are going out of business, they just need to go out of business, and there needs…there is going to be this kind of new way of doing business that’s almost maybe kind of a throwback to how retail was that was based on good old-fashioned customer service, but I don’t think retail is ever going to go away.
David Pirrotta [00:15:18]: I don’t either. You know, it’s interesting, because when I was looking at my growth, 2019 was an interesting year for retail and also for my business, but what I’ve noticed is our dot com business, of course, is up, but our local specialty business is up significantly. So, I think people, not only are they buying local food and produce, but they’re also still shopping locally, and the reason for that is because these small retailers are creating an experience, and I think what’s happened to the stores that are closing is that they forgot what their experience was. They forgot their point of difference, and they also lost the ability to kind of relate to the customer.
Kelly Kovack [00:16:00]: Do you also think that in some cases, these retailers were sort of leveraging technology in a way that was kind of more of a gimmick, and thinking like, “Okay, I’m going to add animation and create experience by like, this magic mirror,” you know, instead of really using technology to – and, again, this might be my nostalgia, of empowering, kind of the people on the sales floor that are selling. So, like, why not give the people on the sales floor the same access to information that the consumer has when they’re walking in? But, it seems like that human connection has sort of been missing, and maybe – and to me, I think maybe that’s sort of part of the downfall that’s a little bit soulless.
David Pirrotta [00:16:55]: Well, again, I think the consumer, like with the way social media and technology has happened, I think people are shopping differently, and people are – they don’t know how to connect, so even the sales people on the floor aren’t trained how to connect with humans either, because they’re also always on their mobile device, and so it’s interesting because I think what ended up happening with all of these gimmicks and mirrors and all of these things that people are launching, I think every retailer is following each other’s trends, and they’re not – they’re following each other, so everyone is doing the exact same thing at the same time, and it’s not exciting. So then, it’s like…so, no one goes to any of the stores, they’re all empty, because they’re all doing the exact same concept, and then the sales people don’t even know what the concepts are, because no one is even talking to them. So, there’s this disconnect between the corporate, the creative team, and the floor team. Back when I started on the floor, we were the first to know everything. They told us before it was even announced to everyone else. And, also, the experience was you wanted the consumer to walk in and feel like they wanted to stay for a while. I remember, like right now Nordstrom’s opened up here in New York City, and when I walked in, I was like, “Wow, they’re actually doing what I enjoyed doing. I loved walking in – when I left Bergdorf’s and went to work at Barney’s, I loved it because it was like a party down there. People would just come in to listen to great music, to look at beautiful peoples selling you product, and you didn’t want to leave because we were even allowed to order champagne from Fred’s for our customers at our counters, and people would stay for a while and spend $15,000 or $20,000, and then just recently, before they declared bankruptcy, I would go down to the cosmetic floor, and the department manager would shush me, like a librarian, and I was like, “Excuse me, I’m a distributor selling products here, why are you shushing me,” and the reason why I was being loud was because I had seven customers I was trying to sell skincare to, and I was trying to get them excited. So, the excitement disappeared, and so I think what ended up happening was the cosmetic floor, online became exciting, all of these concepts became exciting, the floor just lost its soul and lost its way to connect with the consumer.
Kelly Kovack [00:19:01]: I would agree. I think also, sort of what happened in parallel to that is you know, at one point, the beauty landscape and how brands were distributed was, it was so regimented and it was sort of “the law,” and all of the sudden, it’s a bit of a free-for-all. Consumers are totally sort of channel agnostic, so your brands, regardless of whether they’re luxury, premium, masstige, mass, available sort of across touchpoints, across channels. How do you even go about building a distribution channel strategy with your brands that you work with?
David Pirrotta [00:19:47]: Well, currently…like, back in the day when I started my brand management side of the business, it was very regimented. I think people came to me specifically because of my relationship with Barney’s.
Kelly Kovack [00:19:56]: You had the access.
David Pirrotta [00:19:57]: I had the access to Barney’s, and Bergdorf’s and the right buyers, where you would start with Tier A, and you’d just be really strict with keeping it just tight until you launched Barney’s or Bergdorf’s or Niemen’s, and after that you would just segue down the trickle effect of the pyramid, and then now, like we’re launching a few brands, luckily wellness is a huge space for me right now, so we’ll go into that later, but a lot of the way I’m strategizing and working on brands is I’m trying to put them into experiential spaces, so in New York, there’s a place called The Well, so a lot of my new brands are in The Well’s retail, and on the west coast, a lot of my other brands that aren’t always sold at The Well are at this other place called Remedy Place, so they’re both just new wellness kind of membership SoHo houses of the future, and so I’m starting with getting them into experience, and then after that retail, we can open anything. We have to get – like what’s keeping them interesting is getting them into something that’s outside the box so they can get some press and some traction, but then we’re like launching them of course at like Niemen’s and Nordstrom’s and all of the department stores, so we open them all at like the same time now.
Kelly Kovack [00:21:10]: Interesting. And you also, I think one of the reasons people come to you is that you also have a mass – this network of really interesting, independent retailers and service concepts. So, how did that sort of factor into the building of your business, and kind of if you had to put percent total, how important is securing a network of indie brands from a financial standpoint?
David Pirrotta [00:21:37]: It’s really important, because that’s our bread and butter. So, I always tell every brand when you’re developing, so if we go into, say, the majors, all too quickly, there’s not enough cash flow to sustain unless you’re heavily funded. So, the balance of opening one major and 20 specialty; and then you open one major and another 30 specialty, there has to be a balance because all of the specialty doors are pretty much prepaid cards, and so basically what happens…
Kelly Kovack [00:22:04]: It’s nice.
David Pirrotta [00:22:05]: It’s so nice. Who doesn’t want that? And also, it also takes away the risk factor, you know, with all of these retailers closing, all of these majors closing, it’s a risk. So, when you’re trying to build the brand, and I think that’s why a lot of people come to us, because we do work with a lot of service doors, which are salon and spa, as well as some of the best independent concept specialty stores across the country. We have accounts in Nebraska, we have accounts all over Alabama, all over the southeast.
Kelly Kovack [00:22:32]: That’s amazing.
David Pirrotta [00:22:33]: Yeah, you know, it’s like it did take 20 years of my career to build that, and as of right now, I think I’ve worked with over…I’ve launched and worked with over 80 brands in my career. I like made a list but then I just didn’t want to look at it anymore because I was like, “Oh my god, I should be…”
Kelly Kovack [00:22:48]: It makes me feel old.
David Pirrotta [00:22:50]: I feel old, and I should be a lot richer, too. I was like, “What happened here, girl?”
Kelly Kovack [00:22:58]: Something that I’ve noticed that I find kind of interesting, and very hopeful about, is that we’ve…there’s all this talk about the indie beauty trend, which I’m like, yeah, I lived through that in 1996, and it’s not new, and I really think of…I think it’s probably a little bit easier to launch a brand for lots of reasons, but you know, I think what has also come out of this is that I’m seeing really cool, indie retail concepts open, and so am I imagining that? And, do you think it’s happening because there’s so many brands and there’s not enough places? So, most indie brands are not going to land at Sephora, they’re not going to land at Ulta, so like, where do you go?
David Pirrotta [00:23:54]: Yeah, so luckily, there has been, you know, an influx of a lot of these kind of indie multi-channel doors. Everyone knows that there’s the Credo’s for the all-natural and the detox market, but in the middle of the country, there’s Alia, she’s decided to go after the markets for Credo and Folane, and you know, detox haven’t gone into, and those are the markets, Atlanta, North Carolina, she’s in interesting places in California which no one knows that she’s there, but she actually has a very strong business model with some of the best brands.
Kelly Kovack [00:24:29]: Well, you know, it’s very interesting, because I mean, I’m sure you remember kind of how Blue Mercury started.
David Pirrotta [00:24:37]: Wow, that really dates us.
Kelly Kovack [00:24:39]: I know, I know. But, it started in Washington, D.C., which, you know, I kind of feel like there may be…as people are sort of ringing the death knell of retail, there may be kind of the next Blue Mercury, Space NK, Sephora kind of in the making.
David Pirrotta [00:024:56]: And there is. You know, I think right now, there’s another one out of Nashville and Houston, and it’s Lemon Laine, and she has created this concept which is just so refreshing. So started in Nashville and she opened her second in Houston, and I’m sure she’s someone to look out for because she’s going to open so many more. We have another strong account that’s been around for a while called Citrine in Scottsdale, and she has been one of the first…like, after the second round of indie, because of course, when we started, people forget that in the ‘90s, like in the ‘90s, that was the first round of indie brands.
Kelly Kovack [00:25:31]: Sure, Noirs, Crème de la Mar, Bobby Brown, Bliss.
David Pirrotta [00:25:34]: Eve Lom, yeah, all of these indie brands, even The Art of Shaving was an indie brand then. So, you think about it, we were there during that time.
Kelly Kovack [00:25:43]: Kiehl’s.
David Pirrotta [00:25:44]: Yeah, Kiehl’s. These were all indie brands. Wow, yeah. Wow.
Kelly Kovack [00:25:50]: Sorry.
David Pirrotta [00:25:51]: I’m having a moment where I’m realizing how really old I am. Anyway, let’s go back. But, no, so again, there was this kind of…there was a small time where there wasn’t a big influx, and then right after that economy, like 2008, 2009 happened, and that’s when I started my business.
Kelly Kovack [00:26:11]: The great recession, as the millennials refer to it.
David Pirrotta [00:26:13]: Yeah, the great recession actually was when I started my business. My current job here in New York wanted to reduce my salary by 35%, so I was like, “Oh, there’s no room but going up,” so I ended up moving to LA, and all of these stores closed – all of these boring stores that were suffering already just fell off the radar and the stores that stuck around were the ones that had really great concepts.
Kelly Kovack [00:26:38]: So, there’s sort of a beauty about a recession, not that anyone wants to have a recession, but there’s this culling that happens where businesses that are really solid business models will always find their way out the other side, probably stronger, and those that were kind of just kind of skating along, like the rubber hits the road, and you’re out of business. There’s sort of, you know, it’s just not possible anymore. But, I feel now, sort of we’re in that moment where there’s sort of a glut of brands and concepts and sort of where I walk through these shows, and I’m sort of like, “Where are all of these brands going to go?”
David Pirrotta [00:27:23]: Yeah, it’s a really, really loud space now. When I first started, I had to find the brands, and now, we get on average 16 to 22 brands sending me boxes that I didn’t even ask for, and my mornings start with cleaning out my email box of so many brands wanting to talk, and that leads me to saying like, when I started my business, I only worked with brands that have their own formulations; I don’t work with brands that are private label. I can tell when they are private label because I know how many units they’re running at a time. I’m like, there’s no way that it’s your formula if you can run a thousand units or a few hundred units at a time. So, I get a little discouraged by brands like that, because again, going back to integrity, I love working with people that have integrity, brands that have integrity, and brand founders that are creating brands for the right reasons. What I’ve found in the last decade is people are creating brands because they’ve heard that they can sell it for a hundred million to a billion dollars. I think you should just try auditioning and trying to be a superstar.
Kelly Kovack [00:28:34]: Or, playing the lottery, it’s probably easier.
David Pirrotta [00:28:36]: It’s easier, clearly. And like, they think because they’ve read an article or even one of my distribution brands that I helped build for a long time, I realized later on, after I worked so hard launching it, that the creators read a book about creating an all-green brand and that it would sell for a lot of money. So, going back to…I really like working with people that come from a genuine place, that have integrity, that are creating a product or a company that serves a purpose, that also, it comes from a genuine place, and that they own their own formulas. I’d rather work with a brand that has one skew, but it’s their formula and we can build on that and launch more products after that. I also only work with doctor brands that are published doctors, that are doctors that actually also have an accredited client base and they have a practice. I have an issue with doctor brands that don’t have a practice or are published and I can’t find any published documents about their studies. I don’t want to use their product on my face. So, my job as a brand manager and as a product distributor is really to vet the business and like, get through all the bullshit, sorry, am I allowed to say that on here?
Kelly Kovack [00:29:47]: You can say that.
David Pirrotta [00:29:48]: You know, get through all of that, because there’s so much noise and so many influencers coming into my office because they’re influencers and they’re creating a brand and private labeling that brand because there’s always manufacturers creating products for these people because they know they can make money off of them, too. So, there’s a lot of things…
Kelly Kovack [00:30:09]: There’s a lot of noise.
David Pirrotta [00:30:10]: There’s a lot of noise, and then there’s only a few brands that are coming out the other side.
Kelly Kovack [00:30:16]: Yep. So, I think this is the perfect way to segue into two really hot topics that we’ll go into next.
David Pirrotta [00:30:23]: Oh, I feel like we’re on The View.
Kelly Kovack [00:30:25]: Amazon and Barney’s.
